Saturday, June 25, 2011

Israeli official praises WWII Pope for saving Jews

The Israeli envoy to the Vatican praised Pope Pius XII for his efforts to save Jews during World War II:

Lewy, speaking at a ceremony Thursday night to honor an Italian priest who helped Jews, said that Catholic convents and monasteries had opened their doors to save Jews in the days following a Nazi sweep of Rome's Ghetto on October 16, 1943.

"There is reason to believe that this happened under the supervision of the highest Vatican officials, who were informed about what was going on," he said in a speech.

It has become fashionable to denigrate Pius for not grandstanding on the issue--an act that would not only have potentially shut the Vatican down, but which would have prevented the Vatican from helping hundreds of thousands of Jews during the war. It wasn't that way at the time, when numerous Jewish leaders praised the Catholic Church for what it did.

13 comments:

Singring said...

There are also Jews who deny the Holocaust.

Seamus said...

So saying nice things about Pius XII is like denying the Holocaust. Got it.

Singring said...

'So saying nice things about Pius XII is like denying the Holocaust. Got it.'

Not at all. Your knee-jerk reaction illustrates that you suffer from the same lapses in critical thinking skills Martin so oftem bemoans.

Otherwise, you would have noticed that may point was this: What one Israeli or another says about X has no bearing whatsoever about whether X is true or not. What matters in this case is the historical evidence.

An Israeli can say the nicest things about Pius XII, it doesn't mean they are true - just as an Israeli saying that the Holocaust never happened does not make that true.

This should be pretty obvious.

Seamus said...

"An Israeli can say the nicest things about Pius XII, it doesn't mean they are true - just as an Israeli saying that the Holocaust never happened does not make that true."

In other words, saying nice things about Pius XII *is* like denying the Holocaust, in that both kinds of statements are ones whose truth value has nothing to do with whether an Israeli says them or not.

What was that about lapses in critical thinking again?

Martin Cothran said...

"I have a folder on my table in Israel entitled ‘Calumnies Against Pius XII.' . . . Without him, many of our own would not be alive."

--Michael Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on Roman Jews during the Holocaust

Singring said...

'In other words, saying nice things about Pius XII *is* like denying the Holocaust, in that both kinds of statements are ones whose truth value has nothing to do with whether an Israeli says them or not.'

If you want to equivocate denial of the Holocaust with the denial of moral failings of a person, you go right ahead. I don't think its equivalent.

'"I have a folder on my table in Israel entitled ‘Calumnies Against Pius XII.' . . . Without him, many of our own would not be alive."

--Michael Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on Roman Jews during the Holocaust'

If you want to play quote ping-pong, we can go at it for months. You know better than I that Pope Pius XII has more critics than supporters. Let me just quote Hans Küng from an interview you can find here:

http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/03/hans-kung-attacks-pope-pius-xii-70.html

'sueddeutsche.de: Meanwhile the Catholic Church seeks to represent the Pope as a helper of persecuted Jews. The Holy See has published numerous documents that show the assistance given to the Jewish community and the Nazi critical statements of Pius. How do you see his role in retrospect?

Küng: On the whole, despite all of this, there remain concerns that Pius failed on the question of Judaism and the Holocaust, because he has not used his power as a prophetic witness. He was silent on all and every German crime, although he knew perfectly well from 1942 mainly through the Berne Nuncio and Italian military chaplains. Even his German confidant, Sister Pasqualina, pleaded with him about the Holocaust - in vain. Pius refused to publicly criticize the largest mass murder in history. Against this fact, one cannot simply cite documents.'

and

'sueddeutsche.de: Didn’t Pius remained silent about Nazi crimes to prevent harm to the church?

Küng: He was certainly in a predicament and in a conflict of conscience. But we must not forget that he had already earlier seen Nazism as a potential partner.

sueddeutsche.de: Can you give examples?

Küng: 1931, two years before Hitler seized power, the then Secretary of State Cardinal Pacelli urged the Reich Chancellor Heinrich Brüning from the Centre Party to go into coalition with the Nazi party. Then he concluded on 20 July 1933 an unfortunate Reich Concordat with the Nazi regime. Hitler saw this as a first and extremely important recognition for his foreign policy. As far as internal German politics was concerned the agreement integrated the Catholics and the reluctant German episcopacy as well as the clergy into the Nazi system.'

[...]He was aware of the affinity between his own authoritarian ecclesiastical understanding - it was anti-protestant, anti-modern, anti-liberal and anti-socialism - and the fascist understanding of the state. With regard to the notions of "unity", "order", "discipline," "the leader principle" he recognized the similarities with Nazi ideology. The Nazis wanted to enforce at the level of the state similar things to the Catholic Church on the religious-supernatural level.'

and, the most important point:

'Pacelli continued his struggle against communism after 1945. He excommunicated then all Catholics who were members of Communist parties. But he previously failed to excommunicate those who were formally Catholics in the Nazi leadership - Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels and others -.'

I guess in your understanding, excommunicating Communists but not excommunicating the Nazis who were directly responsible for the Holocaust is indicative of a Pope who was valiantly fighting the Holocaust. I tend to think otherwise.

Martin Cothran said...

Küng (via Singring): On the whole, despite all of this, there remain concerns that Pius failed on the question of Judaism and the Holocaust, because he has not used his power as a prophetic witness. He was silent on all and every German crime...

The broadcast on Vatican Radio in which Pius called the German actions against Jewish and Catholic Poles "the dreadful cruelties of uncivilized tyranny" was called: "[an] outspoken denunciation of German atrocities in Nazi Poland, declaring they affronted the moral conscience of mankind."
--The Jewish Advocate of Boston, January, 1940.

The Nazis were "false prophets with the pride of Lucifer."
--Pius XII, Open Letter to the Bishop of Cologne, March, 1935.

The Nazis were "possessed by the superstition of race and blood..."
--Pius XII, Speech to enormous crowd at Lourdes, 1935.

Germany is "that noble and powerful nation whom bad shepherds would lead astray into an ideology of race."
--Pius XII, at Notre Dame in Paris, 1937.

"Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism."
--Headline, New York Times, Oct. 28, 1939.

"In the burning words he spoke to Herr Ribbentrop, he came to the defense of Jews in Germany and Poland."
New York Times, March 1940

Thomas Aquinas said...

Singring, you are truly mad quoting Kung. The fact that you would think the man's mind-reading is a "fact" is beyond the pale. How Kung could "know" what's in Pacelli's "mind" is not explained. Apparently, Kung is more gnostic than we had suspected.

However, you should read this, by Jewish Rabbi: http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

And from his book: http://books.google.com/books?id=qAmKnonoAB0C&lpg=PA38&ots=zAgv03ZtMX&dq=Dalin%20%22Pius%20XII%22%201931&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q=Pacelli&f=false

Kung is a liar.

Thomas Aquinas said...

Thanks Martin. Singring, you've been lied to by bitter Catholic priests (and ex-priests) who are bitter that the Vatican would not let them be their own popes. Just apologize for your calumny and move on.

Singring said...

From The Yad Vashem website:

'Cardinal Pacelli was elected pope on March 2, 1939, and took the name Pius XII. Regarding his attitude to Jews, his pontificate is the subject of disagreement among scholars, some praising his aid to individual Jews in distress, others criticizing his silence and his failure to publicly condemn the Nazi persecutions. Even Catholic authors who base themselves only on the official documents published by the Holy See have deplored some aspects of the conduct of the papacy in general and of Pius XII in particular.'

The following quotes from 'Mit brennender Sorge' illustrate that much of Pcalli's criticism of Nazis was not about their policticl or otehr doctrines, but rather about their flirtations with paganism and supplanting church authority with state authority:

'Hitler, however, never intended to implement the concordat. With religious liberty at stake, Pope Pius XI on March 21, 1937, issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern), in which he questioned the errors of Nazi ideology: "Whoever detaches the race, the nation, the state, the form of government ... from the earthly frame of reference and makes them into the highest norm of all, higher than religious values, and worships them with idolatry, perverts and distorts the order of things provided and commended by God." The encyclical condemned neo-pagan theories such as the "idolatric doctrine of the race," but not the constitutional form of the Nazi regime.'

or

'Nevertheless, when it became urgent to find a haven for thousands of Jewish refugees after the Kristallnacht pogrom, the Holy See intervened in March 1939, in Catholic Brazil. It obtained 3,000 visas for baptized Jews, of which 2,000, however, were not granted because of alleged "improper conduct," in Cardinal Luigi Maglione's words. This was probably a reference to the returning of Jews to Judaism once they reached Brazil. Some historians believe that in its policies toward refugees, the church manifested antisemitism, indifference to the plight of the non-Christian Jews, and excessive neutralism.'

'Senior members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy – marinaded in virulent Judeophobia and obsessed by Bolshevism – organised the escape of thousands of the most debauched, cruel monsters to a peaceful, prosperous retirement in Catholic South America.'

The Telegraph, March 17th 2010

'An Italian Jewish leader told Pope Benedict on Sunday that his wartime predecessor Pius XII should have spoken out more forcefully against the Holocaust to show solidarity with Jews being led to the "ovens of Auschwitz".'

Jewish World 20.7.2010

'ROME (Reuters) - Nobel Peace Prize winner and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel, in a major speech to Italy's parliament, attacked wartime Pope Pius XII on Wednesday for his "silence" during the Nazis' mass killings of Jews."Whether at the lowest level of politics or the highest level of spirituality, silence never helps the victims. Silence always helps the aggressor," Wiesel told parliamentarians and top officials including Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.A source in Wiesel's entourage later told Reuters the words "highest level of spirituality" were a reference to Pius, who headed the Roman Catholic Church from 1939 to 1958.'

Reuters, 27.1.2010

As I said before, we could go at this for months.

But why am I even attempting to elicit an objective evaluation of Pope XII from already dogmatically committed Cartholics who cannot do else but believe that the Pope is infallibe?

Martin Cothran said...

Nobel Peace Prize winner and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel, in a major speech to Italy's parliament, attacked wartime Pope Pius XII on Wednesday for his "silence" during the Nazis' mass killings of Jews.

The treatment of French Jews consisted of "the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French-occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia."
--The nuncio of Pius sent to protest to the Vichy government

"Pope Is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France."
--Headline, New York Times, August, 1942.

"Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored."
--Headline, New York Times, August, 1942.

"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. . . . In calling for a ‘real new order' based on ‘liberty, justice, and love,' . . . the pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism."
--New York Times, Christmas 1941.

Seamus said...

If you want to equivocate denial of the Holocaust with the denial of moral failings of a person, you go right ahead. I don't think its equivalent.

In that case, you shouldn't have made your initial post, in which you implied that they *were* equivalent.

Singring said...

'In that case, you shouldn't have made your initial post, in which you implied that they *were* equivalent.'

Again, Seamus - if that is what you took from my initial post then you just missed the point completely. It is you who started to equivocate, not me. My point was an entirely different one.