tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post1155315408754966882..comments2024-03-28T15:39:28.239-04:00Comments on Vital Remnants: News Flash: At least Hasan wasn't engaged in sexual harassmentMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-65308015941562992872009-11-20T18:59:09.221-05:002009-11-20T18:59:09.221-05:00> If you can't see a difference between sev...> If you can't see a difference between severe and extreme, I'm not sure that I can help you (hopefully you're aware that the thesaurus often gives terms that are not quite equivalent).<br /><br />In a court of law, there is a lot of quibbling over just such things as the difference between severe and extreme. That's why we have courts of law, judges, and jurors. My point isnLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-31032616460852291452009-11-20T18:37:52.377-05:002009-11-20T18:37:52.377-05:00(I had posted this and then taken it down because ...(I had posted this and then taken it down because I thought I had too many typos, scrambled syntax, and garbled comments, and wanted to fix them. Thomas answered the post, however, before I could post the corrections. I will post it now corrected, or so I hope...)<br /><br />Not that it isn't fun to watch you wave your hands, but I still need to know why you think DOJ is all wrong in their Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-34262669341505042962009-11-19T16:22:23.349-05:002009-11-19T16:22:23.349-05:00Strange that you're saying that now, when befo...Strange that you're saying that now, when before the term severe was "loosey goosy" (a highly technical legal term, it appears). If you can't see a difference between severe and extreme, I'm not sure that I can help you (hopefully you're aware that the thesaurus often gives terms that are not quite equivalent). Then again, if both terms mean the same thing, why you wouldThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-28838958692921351462009-11-19T15:28:21.748-05:002009-11-19T15:28:21.748-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-51506010459288450712009-11-19T14:57:36.077-05:002009-11-19T14:57:36.077-05:00You're either laboring under the strange delus...You're either laboring under the strange delusion that I wrote the federal statute on torture and the United Nations treaty on torture, or you don't understand the difference between a verbatim quotation of a statute and an interpretation of that statute. I've given you the text of both the statute and the treaty.<br /><br />The only interpretation of federal statutes that has any Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-36883976809672265062009-11-19T12:33:58.151-05:002009-11-19T12:33:58.151-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-81003731532676131722009-11-19T12:32:07.096-05:002009-11-19T12:32:07.096-05:00I must have missed your explanation of why I shoul...I must have missed your explanation of why I should consider your interpretation to more more authoritative. I looked everywhere for it.<br /><br />It is sufficient for me simply to point out that you come in with sweeping verdicts and conclusions about the criminal Bush, as if the law itself had no ambiguities that need to be resolved, or different interpretations considered.<br /><br />And Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54808699143751520292009-11-19T11:53:29.059-05:002009-11-19T11:53:29.059-05:00You may also want to check out the United Nations ...You may also want to check out the United Nations Convention Against Torture: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htmThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-928656243191747612009-11-19T11:52:35.805-05:002009-11-19T11:52:35.805-05:00For one thing because this is a brief. Do you know...For one thing because this is a brief. Do you know what a brief is?<br /><br />More obviously, though, what I said wasn't an interpretation. It came straight out of the 18 USC 2340. There is obviously a difference between the "extreme pain" standard and the "severe pain" standard. You're substituting the definition of a lawyer arguing in a case for the definition of Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-77145983883742816332009-11-19T10:18:09.776-05:002009-11-19T10:18:09.776-05:00Why should I not consider the DOJ's interpreta...Why should I not consider the DOJ's interpretation of the law as more authoritative than your interpretation?Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-77888983828247137342009-11-19T10:10:31.393-05:002009-11-19T10:10:31.393-05:00I'm not sure what you're driving at when y...I'm not sure what you're driving at when you say the Obama administration is violating the law. Does that somehow mean the Bush administration is different? Or that it shouldn't be punished?<br /><br />And you're citing a DOJ brief as though it somehow is more binding (or binding as a matter of law at all) as a federal statute on torture and the associated case law. That in itselfThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-56303985134614610662009-11-19T08:31:54.389-05:002009-11-19T08:31:54.389-05:00And, by the way, I checked: not a single law agai...And, by the way, I checked: not a single law against torture in the U.S. mentions waterboarding specifically.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-13268809929860943162009-11-19T08:28:56.692-05:002009-11-19T08:28:56.692-05:00> You have the familiar habit of presuming that...> You have the familiar habit of presuming that since one doesn't want one's country to do immoral things to people alleged to be terrorists, that one doesn't care about the value of human life. <br /><br />Well, nobody's perfect. Look at the bright side: I could be begging questions, as you do, regarding what happens to be immoral.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-15862325893530322672009-11-19T07:45:50.704-05:002009-11-19T07:45:50.704-05:00> We're actually not at war.
How strict-co...> We're actually not at war.<br /><br />How strict-constructionist of you. I bet you don't say that to all the lovely, loosely-specified government actions.<br /><br />I too would have preferred a formal declaration of war -- it clarifies things, and prevents just such misunderstandings as you have demonstrated -- but in fact the Constitution doesn't require formality. It simply Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-8917178511675904972009-11-18T10:14:11.454-05:002009-11-18T10:14:11.454-05:00We're actually not at war. The US hasn't d...We're actually not at war. The US hasn't declared war since Korea, I believe. Even if we were, the law is not suspended during wartime. I'm not sure where you got that from.<br /><br />You have the familiar habit of presuming that since one doesn't want one's country to do immoral things to people alleged to be terrorists, that one doesn't care about the value of human Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-83211092845040974962009-11-17T23:09:00.263-05:002009-11-17T23:09:00.263-05:00> You don't really get the law, or how it w...> You don't really get the law, or how it works, do you?<br /><br />You really don't get that we're at war, do you?<br /><br />> And if you think there's not any danger in waterboarding, you have no credibility. People have drowned, tracheas have collapsed, and people have died from heart attacks.<br /><br />Did any of this happen under Bush?<br /><br />> This wasn't Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-83107277643515680632009-11-17T22:36:22.372-05:002009-11-17T22:36:22.372-05:00You don't really get the law, or how it works,...You don't really get the law, or how it works, do you?<br /><br />And if you think there's not any danger in waterboarding, you have no credibility. People have drowned, tracheas have collapsed, and people have died from heart attacks. This wasn't just some technique thought up recently. It's a torture technique that dates back to the Spanish Inquisition, and was used by the KhmerThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-24122249283085241562009-11-17T21:06:34.935-05:002009-11-17T21:06:34.935-05:00Well, depending on the individual's perception...Well, depending on the individual's perception -- the one who is being "tortured" -- simple incarceration is torture. Taking away someone's cigarettes is torture.<br /><br />I have no problem with waterboarding terrorists. We got a lot of valuable information using that technique on one or two of them, and it probably saved a lot of lives. They were never in any danger, and Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-68281161433347684932009-11-16T14:12:03.196-05:002009-11-16T14:12:03.196-05:00I'd say torture is when a government official...I'd say torture is when a government official inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon another person within his custody; including procedures that alter or disrupt one's senses or personality. As it happens, U.S. case law defines waterboarding as torture, since otherwise, you'd have to say that the sensation of drowning is not severe suffering.<br /><br />The SupremeThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-91448419872459636482009-11-16T14:03:56.119-05:002009-11-16T14:03:56.119-05:00Case in point:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/...Case in point:<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html?_r=3&hp<br /><br />Rendition was evil when Bush did it, but unremarkable when Clinton did it. Obama is doing it too, but I'm sure he's doing it much more nicely.<br /><br />You could get the impression, if you were careful, that it is not what is done that matters, but rather who does it.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-3885416505710830662009-11-16T13:40:10.911-05:002009-11-16T13:40:10.911-05:00> Torture violates both federal law and interna...> Torture violates both federal law and international treaties that we have signed (Ronald Reagan having signed one of the most significant treaties).<br /><br />Depends on what you call torture, I think. What do you call torture?<br /><br />> The wiretapping clearly violated the Constitution, as well as federal wiretapping laws.<br /><br />I don't see the Constitutional violation, Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-91923493739540049062009-11-16T12:39:41.517-05:002009-11-16T12:39:41.517-05:00Torture violates both federal law and internationa...Torture violates both federal law and international treaties that we have signed (Ronald Reagan having signed one of the most significant treaties). The wiretapping clearly violated the Constitution, as well as federal wiretapping laws. The events in Fallujah violated international law prohibiting declaring a free fire zone.<br /><br />Much of the responsibility lies with the Obama administrationThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-56783282489854141062009-11-16T12:27:01.956-05:002009-11-16T12:27:01.956-05:00> The wider point, though, is that the Bush adm...> The wider point, though, is that the Bush administration generated a culture of illegality within the government. <br /><br />Specify, please.<br /><br />> Whether or not Hasan could have been prosecuted or dismissed is a discretionary act; but the Bush administration was not only not fulfilling ministerial requirements, they were actively violated national and international laws.<br /><Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-47749452404268037832009-11-16T12:21:07.436-05:002009-11-16T12:21:07.436-05:00Here's the link again:
http://www.jerrypourne...Here's the link again:<br /><br />http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/2009/Q4/mail596#<br /><br />... and type Friday after the link. For some reason, Blogger doesn't let me put the entire link on.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-72771541530589884422009-11-16T12:19:45.576-05:002009-11-16T12:19:45.576-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.com