tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post1969959667649087250..comments2024-03-28T15:39:28.239-04:00Comments on Vital Remnants: P. J. O'Rourke on faith and scienceMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-35728527802178205632008-09-03T00:21:00.000-04:002008-09-03T00:21:00.000-04:00lee: I have stated several times that even when mo...lee: I have stated several times that even when morality appears to be relative that there must be an absolute standard by which the relative standards are judged. It's amazing how many times you can state an argument and then have someone act like he doesn't get it.<BR/><BR/>Still don't get it. I've been assuming that the reader (or I) has been doing the judging. Is this wrong? If the absolute Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-46606981486379056272008-09-02T12:54:00.000-04:002008-09-02T12:54:00.000-04:00> He guaranteed freedom of religion, protecting...> He guaranteed freedom of religion, protecting the rights of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and Hindus alike. Genghis Khan himself worshipped the sky, but he forbade the killing of priests, monks, nuns, mullahs, and other holy people.<BR/><BR/>The Khan was an interesting mix. Yes, Pax Mongolica was a real thing. It's why, e.g., Marco Polo could travel through some of the toughest landsLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-81865111224805095922008-09-02T12:42:00.000-04:002008-09-02T12:42:00.000-04:00> jah "But then what would be the source o...> jah "But then what would be the source of this righteousness? This got confusing and I decided that omnipotence included the ability to define righteousness."<BR/><BR/>It's an interesting proposition, actually. My reasoning is that power and righteousness are separate things. Only in God do they come together.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-71528567884012900322008-09-02T12:33:00.000-04:002008-09-02T12:33:00.000-04:00> During this period of disorder an ambitious c...> During this period of disorder an ambitious courtier, Wang Mang, deposed an infant emperor, for whom he had been acting as regent, and established the short-lived Xin dynasty. Wang Mang attempted to revitalize the imperial government and relieve the plight of the peasant. He moved against the big tax-free estates by nationalizing all land and redistributing it among the actual cultivators. Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-59088969007919937802008-09-02T12:26:00.000-04:002008-09-02T12:26:00.000-04:00> jah: "Lee himself has argued that slave...> jah: "Lee himself has argued that slavery is not necessarily immoral."<BR/><BR/>I don't think it is necessarily immoral. However, I do think slavery as practiced by most societies that have practiced it is necessarily immoral, and that includes the way the Brits and Americans practiced it. It was practiced in such a way as cruelty to weaker people was an institution.<BR/><BRLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-82211803628843275762008-09-02T12:14:00.000-04:002008-09-02T12:14:00.000-04:00> "The Soviet government supported Lysenko...> "The Soviet government supported Lysenko. The Bush administration does not support global warming. So US scientists are not serving the government. Does this make anyone more inclined to believe in the integrity of the scientists?"<BR/><BR/>The global warming scientists aren't getting any government grants? They're not being paid salaries by universities that get a lot of Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-46146057939217031412008-09-01T23:34:00.000-04:002008-09-01T23:34:00.000-04:00lee: I believe that we are all believers, in the ...lee: I believe that we are all believers, in the sense that we all know instinctively that God exists. There are just those who respond, and those who deny.<BR/><BR/>Again, I think there are two extremes of ways of knowing here.<BR/><BR/>At one extreme is the look at the physical evidence and draw tentative conclusions (science type) and at the other is the revealed truth, obvious intuition (Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-23981811846405966222008-09-01T23:07:00.000-04:002008-09-01T23:07:00.000-04:00lee: I would have thought that all-powerful and al...lee: I would have thought that all-powerful and all-righteous are two different concepts,<BR/><BR/>Yes, after typing omnipotent, I wasn't happy with it but then I got to thinking:<BR/><BR/>1) Presumably there can be only one omnipotent being; otherwise the definition would be contradicted.<BR/>2) There could be a separate all-righteous entity.<BR/><BR/>But then what would be the source of this Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-13697131706725090162008-09-01T23:01:00.000-04:002008-09-01T23:01:00.000-04:00lee: In Western Civilization, England in particula...lee: In Western Civilization, England in particular, due to the efforts of Wilberforce and his allies in the world of... evangelical Christianity.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I think the point is that it wasn't until 1700 AD that Christianity concluded slavery was immoral. This argues against a readily perceived absolute morality. [Lee has already responded to this point by suggesting that human morality is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-33178816251023985122008-09-01T22:58:00.000-04:002008-09-01T22:58:00.000-04:00lee: the entire institution of slavery -- a fixtu...lee: the entire institution of slavery -- a fixture of human culture since there has been a human culture -- was finally treated as wrong and ended...? Where? In the enlightened socialist paradises of the Soviet Union, China, ...? ...In the atheistic world of the Mongols? Nope. <BR/><BR/>Here is some information without great references:<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Xin Dynasty (ad 9-23)<BR/><BR/>During Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-39666426290331710862008-09-01T22:45:00.000-04:002008-09-01T22:45:00.000-04:00lee: Who made the standards by which some Christia...lee: Who made the standards by which some Christians are considered "more enlightened" than others? ... You can't condemn Christians for misrepresenting the Bible for their own bigotry without holding up the standards of Christianity to convict them with.<BR/><BR/>Yes, "enlightened" is in reference to a value system. Here it is used to refer to those who think slavery is wrong. Values system Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-60856160292971444192008-09-01T22:41:00.000-04:002008-09-01T22:41:00.000-04:00lee: Lysenko's stuff was bunk, but it was politica...lee: Lysenko's stuff was bunk, but it was politically approved bunk -- something that should give pause to all the global warmists and other propagandists. When science is paid for by the govenment, science will serve the government, and the government's agenda may not be congruent with good science.<BR/><BR/>The Soviet government supported Lysenko. The Bush administration does not support globalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-57082312702587404452008-09-01T22:14:00.000-04:002008-09-01T22:14:00.000-04:00kycobb, I never said you said all Christians are b...kycobb, I never said you said all Christians are bad. I only saw where the discussion was going and decided to show that was the wrong direction.<BR/><BR/>If one's core belief is that the Bible is infallible, then it follows that there is a right way to interpret the Bible, though we may not know perfectly what that is. It is actually amazing that there is so much agreement that there is Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-21038989870934937372008-08-31T23:59:00.000-04:002008-08-31T23:59:00.000-04:00Lee,I never said all christians were bad, I was on...Lee,<BR/><BR/>I never said all christians were bad, I was only agreeing with you that men are often wrong, and pointing out that this fact also applies to biblical interpretation. Since biblical interpretation has little to do with fact, and much to do with one's viewpoint, it was possible, nearly two centuries after more enlightened christians sought abolition of slavery in the British Empire, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54249193328744796242008-08-31T21:09:00.000-04:002008-08-31T21:09:00.000-04:00jah> "This is back to the absolute morals ...jah> "This is back to the absolute morals issue. Of course man is often wrong. By definition an omnipotent being is not."<BR/><BR/>I would have thought that all-powerful and all-righteous are two different concepts, but of course as a Christian I do believe they reside together in our Lord. Just don't know why you would concede as much without any prodding.<BR/><BR/>> jah: &Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-90221279382542817812008-08-31T20:31:00.000-04:002008-08-31T20:31:00.000-04:00kycobb, if we're going to paint fundamentalist Chr...kycobb, if we're going to paint fundamentalist Christians as narrow bigots, the rest of the story is that the entire institution of slavery -- a fixture of human culture since there has been a human culture -- was finally treated as wrong and ended...? Where? In the enlightened socialist paradises of the Soviet Union, China, or Cuba? In the unjustly conquered cultures of pre-Columbian America?Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-73937215715596274832008-08-31T01:19:00.000-04:002008-08-31T01:19:00.000-04:00Lee,You are right, man is often wrong. One of the...Lee,<BR/><BR/>You are right, man is often wrong. One of the things man is often wrong about is what the Bible means. 50 years ago, Jerry Falwell was preaching that the Bible required racial segregation. Heck, Bob Jones University believed the Bible prohibited interracial marriage until only eight years ago.<BR/><BR/>So fundamentalists got something extremely important wrong because of their Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-2593454557392375592008-08-30T23:36:00.000-04:002008-08-30T23:36:00.000-04:00lee: the Biblical message not to trust in the wisd...lee: the Biblical message not to trust in the wisdom of man.<BR/>Man is often wrong.<BR/><BR/>This is back to the absolute morals issue. Of course man is often wrong. By definition an omnipotent being is not. But this gives rise (for some) to the same dilemma - how does an observer know that God exists and what His message is?<BR/><BR/>lee: none are so blind as those who will not see.<BR/><BR/>SoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-16852036738609008622008-08-30T16:01:00.000-04:002008-08-30T16:01:00.000-04:00> I have read O'Rourke's books, and I t...> I have read O'Rourke's books, and I think he's a terrific humorist and a very smart man. That being said, his article was clearly written for laughs, not to be taken too seriously.<BR/><BR/>I think there is some serious content in the article, and it has to do with the Biblical message not to trust in the wisdom of man.<BR/><BR/>Man is often wrong.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-81007339273975288332008-08-30T12:29:00.000-04:002008-08-30T12:29:00.000-04:00Lee,I have read O'Rourke's books, and I think he's...Lee,<BR/><BR/>I have read O'Rourke's books, and I think he's a terrific humorist and a very smart man. That being said, his article was clearly written for laughs, not to be taken too seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-90969100398191640832008-08-29T18:35:00.000-04:002008-08-29T18:35:00.000-04:00I'm so used to hearing from liberals who think Jon...I'm so used to hearing from liberals who think Jon Stewart is the height of intellectual acument, it's actually quite amusing to hear your critique of P.J.<BR/><BR/>I would suggest you read his books before you dismiss him as an inferior intellect, however. The befuddled everyman is just his posture.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-6402392202099056442008-08-29T15:38:00.000-04:002008-08-29T15:38:00.000-04:00I love P.J. O'Rouke's humour-that article is funny...I love P.J. O'Rouke's humour-that article is funny! It is so typically creationist, though, to get one's philosophy about science from a comedian!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-74766504566025183732008-08-29T07:34:00.000-04:002008-08-29T07:34:00.000-04:00MC/PJ: God is not like that. He's famously the...MC/PJ: God is not like that. He's famously there in the details, and He is the big picture.<BR/><BR/>> Can anyone explain what this means?<BR/><BR/>It means, none are so blind as those who will not see.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-18869969534786654042008-08-29T00:37:00.000-04:002008-08-29T00:37:00.000-04:00PJ admits he knows nothing of science:My entire st...PJ admits he knows nothing of science:<BR/>My entire store of information about scientific activity comes from what I’ve seen in the movies. <BR/>...<BR/>Let me resort to the usual practice of the ignoramus and give up on philosophical inquiry and just proclaim an opinion: Science requires more faith than God.<BR/><BR/>I came to that conclusion in my high school physics class (a course that was Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-27265208623358537072008-08-28T22:46:00.000-04:002008-08-28T22:46:00.000-04:00MC/PJ: [P.J.'s] comment on the fact ... that most ...MC/PJ: [P.J.'s] comment on the fact ... that most people believe science not on the basis of experience, but on authority:<BR/><BR/> That's true. Not every scientific finding can be repeated by every single person in order to verify the original conclusion. But many people have verified many experiments. And many predictions have been confirmed. So almost anyone willing can confirm some part of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com