tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post2441789916708004251..comments2024-03-04T05:55:35.225-05:00Comments on Vital Remnants: The "God particle" and the new Religion of ScienceMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-11541942464291731482012-07-10T17:46:11.956-04:002012-07-10T17:46:11.956-04:00Singring,
What I am asking you and Martin is for ...Singring,<br /><br /><i>What I am asking you and Martin is for any good reason to think that there is any *other*, *additional* avenue to find truth - whether it be truth that applies to physical reality or to some other abstract realm (though personally I wouldn't see any way of verifying the latter).</i> <br /><br />The question isn't whether knowledge begins in experience. Aristotle Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-764232999925718202012-07-10T14:55:03.249-04:002012-07-10T14:55:03.249-04:00Singring,
I have have good empirical data to supp...Singring,<br /><br /><i>I have have good empirical data to support the hypothesis that these machines, the scientists and the data they have produced do actually exist.</i><br /><br />Well, the question is not only whether the machines and scientists exist, but whether the machines operate properly and whether the scientists were operating them properly and whole bunch of other things which you Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-6414409641853977682012-07-10T11:31:40.514-04:002012-07-10T11:31:40.514-04:00'Since we only have one life to live (or so th...'Since we only have one life to live (or so the materialists think), does it make sense to search for truth or happiness?'<br /><br />In my opinion, it's truth. Otherwise I would believe in 'happy love God X' who would make me live on after death for as long as I wanted and grant me any wish I wanted in the afterlife.<br /><br />'My understanding is that many philosophers,Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-27943024363255749322012-07-10T11:07:56.022-04:002012-07-10T11:07:56.022-04:00> That is the crux with *any* basic assumption ...> That is the crux with *any* basic assumption you make to work from. We all have to start somewhere, of course -- and this is where every human being (at least every sane human being I have ever known of) starts: with the assumption that empiricism gives access to truth.<br /><br />Starting with a set of assumptions is what we all do, granted. But if your assumption set starts with the Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54413928787733914202012-07-10T09:38:14.854-04:002012-07-10T09:38:14.854-04:00''None of this has any bearing on whether ...''None of this has any bearing on whether his world view, or yours, maps to reality more accurately.'<br /><br />That is the crux with *any* basic assumption you make to work from. We all have to start somewhere, of course -- and this is where every human being (at least every sane human being I have ever known of) starts: with the assumption that empiricism gives access to truth.<br Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-8063104423312728382012-07-10T08:02:01.945-04:002012-07-10T08:02:01.945-04:00> I have stated before, Lee - that 'somethi...> I have stated before, Lee - that 'something that comes before empiricism is the default human position. A child that flatly rejects empiricism has about the same chances of suvivall as a snowball in hell.<br /><br />We're all headed for what the materialists view as the nothingness of death. So your hypothetical child dies a few years before you do. He ends up at the same place youLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-63713458677758025402012-07-10T06:48:41.655-04:002012-07-10T06:48:41.655-04:00'So you're making deductive inferences on ...'So you're making deductive inferences on the basis of things you have seen empirically to things you have not seen empirically?'<br /><br />Precisely.<br /><br />'Have you seen any of the actual machines or any of the actual data that these scientists have used in this particular experiment?'<br /><br />Nope. But as I said, I have have good empirical data to support the Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-80274545516601070122012-07-09T15:04:54.216-04:002012-07-09T15:04:54.216-04:00Singring,
I have good, empirical evidence that C...Singring,<br /><br /><i> I have good, empirical evidence that CERN has equipment that can measure the kind of data required to confirm the presence of the Higgs boson</i><br /><br />And what form does that take? Have you inspected the Large Hadron Collider personally? If not, upon what basis can you say with any confidence that it does what it is purported to do?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-51630309255269767812012-07-09T14:49:45.990-04:002012-07-09T14:49:45.990-04:00I also find it amusing that, despite the fact that...I also find it amusing that, despite the fact that, by his own admission, Singring has not had any empirical exposure to philosophy, he somehow felt justified in making broad, sweeping generalizations about it.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-28242707588311915572012-07-09T14:43:26.982-04:002012-07-09T14:43:26.982-04:00> You already provide a caveat in your own argu...> You already provide a caveat in your own argument: you need the proper analytic tools.<br /><br />You seem confused about which one of us is the one who won't admit that there is something that comes before empiricism.<br /><br />That someone is you, not me. It doesn't contradict my position that the analytice tools must come first.<br /><br />> Like I said, all that basic Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-365344780158170562012-07-09T14:29:44.583-04:002012-07-09T14:29:44.583-04:00Of course, I don't have personal, direct evide...<i>Of course, I don't have personal, direct evidence of the Higgs boson - but I have direct, empirical evidence of measuring devices, I have good, empirical evidence that CERN has equipment that can measure the kind of data required to confirm the presence of the Higgs boson, so by extension I accept their empirical evidence to this effect. Does that answer your question?</i><br /><br />So Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-66084692331324506162012-07-09T14:17:15.608-04:002012-07-09T14:17:15.608-04:00Singring,
I'm getting the impression that you...Singring,<br /><br /><i>I'm getting the impression that you want to claim that logic - in and of itself- can provide us with truth.</i><br /><br />Where did I say that? I hope your impression are more accurate when it comes to science.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-14671597199028722922012-07-09T14:12:34.065-04:002012-07-09T14:12:34.065-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-50025331570356983562012-07-09T13:55:08.646-04:002012-07-09T13:55:08.646-04:00'Well, we already know the truth that you have...'Well, we already know the truth that you have discovered without relying on empiricism, don't we? Namely, empiricism.'<br /><br />I wouldn't really say anyone 'discovered' empiricism. It's is literally a default position - if you don't accept it, you probably win't survive the next 24 hours.<br /><br />'How do you empirically know that the Higgs Boson Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-17318336864537716532012-07-09T10:37:28.547-04:002012-07-09T10:37:28.547-04:00Perhaps I can help just a little bit. Or perhaps n...Perhaps I can help just a little bit. Or perhaps not. I'm certainly no philosopher. But here goes:<br /><br />It seems to me that empiricism is dependent on inductive reasoning. To gain knowledge from an experience requires knowing how to evaluate the experiece.<br /><br />Hypothetical: if every time a blizzard strikes my wife gets pregnant, without the proper analytic tools I might be Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-16367496187853828622012-07-09T10:24:53.591-04:002012-07-09T10:24:53.591-04:00Singring,
How do you empirically know that the Hi...Singring,<br /><br />How do you empirically know that the Higgs Boson particle is a reality?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-32354297392863463282012-07-09T10:17:28.154-04:002012-07-09T10:17:28.154-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-53732672741438484542012-07-09T07:34:35.039-04:002012-07-09T07:34:35.039-04:00> Then I'm curious to know what truth you d...> Then I'm curious to know what truth you discovered without relying on empricism and the methodology by which you arrived at it.<br /><br />Well, we already know the truth that you have discovered without relying on empiricism, don't we? Namely, empiricism.<br /><br />If you can do it, why can't I?Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-6708138209030373812012-07-08T05:14:44.552-04:002012-07-08T05:14:44.552-04:00'Not at all. But I don't claim that empiri...'Not at all. But I don't claim that empiricism is the sole arbiter of truth.'<br /><br />Then I'm curious to know what truth you discovered without relying on empricism and the methodology by which you arrived at it.Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-63778839529917158292012-07-07T20:02:32.559-04:002012-07-07T20:02:32.559-04:00> So does that mean you deny that empiricism pr...> So does that mean you deny that empiricism provides you with truth?<br /><br />Not at all. But I don't claim that empiricism is the sole arbiter of truth.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-25393824114995116472012-07-07T12:37:41.795-04:002012-07-07T12:37:41.795-04:00'Can I take that as a 'no'?'
Of c...'Can I take that as a 'no'?'<br /><br />Of course that's a no. <br /><br />So does that mean you deny that empiricism provides you with truth?Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-58144467892292927922012-07-07T12:10:30.966-04:002012-07-07T12:10:30.966-04:00> Why oh why do you need everything to be *prov...> Why oh why do you need everything to be *proven*, Lee? Can you *prove* to me that you're not going to choke to death the next time you eat? No? Then why do you still partake in food?<br /><br />Can I take that as a 'no'?Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-22993920456755555762012-07-07T00:35:13.477-04:002012-07-07T00:35:13.477-04:00Singring,
Thanks for the civil response :) (I was...Singring,<br /><br />Thanks for the civil response :) (I was expecting the rhetorical equivalent of boiling in oil, so seriously, thank you.)<br /><br />I'll give your post some thought, and get back to you when I return from my weeklong time away (I'm headed into a week of Macbeth on steroids, culminating in a performance--I'm the Porter & Ross *is totally psyched*)<br /><br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-30502811613460391622012-07-06T23:24:41.378-04:002012-07-06T23:24:41.378-04:00Singring,
I would love to respond to you using ar...Singring,<br /><br />I would love to respond to you using arguments, but I am having trouble doing that now since, in order to do it, I have to use logic, a philosophical discipline discovered and formulated by a thinker you say "produced a sizable amount of nonsense."Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-47496174189059574812012-07-06T18:47:43.104-04:002012-07-06T18:47:43.104-04:00'Let us be absolutely clear: I'm not tryin...'Let us be absolutely clear: I'm not trying to show you up as *anything*. Please don’t make assumptions about my motives. Thank you. :)'<br /><br />My sincere apologies. Unfortunately I have become so accustomed to the deflecting questions Martin and Lee constantly throw up that I have developed a knee-jerk reaction to similar posts. I shoould know better, sorry about that.<br /><br /Singringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180277470418724600noreply@blogger.com