tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post4948739357604125970..comments2024-03-28T15:39:28.239-04:00Comments on Vital Remnants: The University of Kentucky's "Gaskell Affair": Further adventures in intellectual "Diversity" at UKMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-56716095849174896882010-12-15T04:57:22.244-05:002010-12-15T04:57:22.244-05:00There were at least two issues about hiring Gaskel...There were at least two issues about hiring Gaskell, by all measures a fine astronomer. One of them has been discussed, and to be clearer about it, apparently Gaskell is a proponent of "theistic evolution" -- basically evolution helped along by some supernatural agency. That is a problem, IMHO, for someone with a position involving a lot of public outreach and science education, whereAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-2791039160312901342010-12-14T17:33:00.038-05:002010-12-14T17:33:00.038-05:00Joe,
Every one of your examples had to do with po...Joe,<br /><br />Every one of your examples had to do with positions having directly to do with particular disciplines. What position has Gaskell taken that is outside the mainstream of the discipline of astronomy?<br /><br />And in it any case, it seems a rather strange way for people who claim to be non-dogmatic to advocate resolving academic questions by enforcing official academic positions.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-32827914337873504272010-12-14T17:14:51.905-05:002010-12-14T17:14:51.905-05:00It's crystal clear that Dr. Gaskell was not of...It's crystal clear that Dr. Gaskell was not offered a position at the University of Kentucky because he considers his theological tradition an intellectually serious enterprise that has to be reconciled with the deliverances of other disciplines. Other scholars do this all the time. For example, suppose a biochemist tells you that he cannot find moral properties under his microscope or even Francis Beckwithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03765632359220115150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-3554477946013951622010-12-14T13:58:23.874-05:002010-12-14T13:58:23.874-05:00@Thomas:
Thanks for posting your rationale... I h...@Thomas:<br /><br />Thanks for posting your rationale... I hope this doesn't apply because it could result in alchemists teaching chemistry, astrology to counter astromony and demons instead of germ theory - so many bogus beliefs, under the guise of 'religious belief', could make their way into the university system.<br /><br />And lets face it - American universities are hurting at Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-51789255762065087892010-12-14T13:37:47.403-05:002010-12-14T13:37:47.403-05:00As to freedom of association: Roberts v. Jaycees.
...As to freedom of association: Roberts v. Jaycees.<br /><br />As to a public university not being the same as private institutions that wish to express a message, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that public universities are supposed to be bastions of free speech, where speech is to be unfettered. See Sweezey v. New Hampshire:<br /><br />"Scholarship cannot flourish in an atmosphere of Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-86235876772694693762010-12-14T12:49:08.542-05:002010-12-14T12:49:08.542-05:00Thomas wrote: "Groups that have a message to ...Thomas wrote: "Groups that have a message to express are protected under the First Amendment from having to admit dissenters. A public university does not have that protection."<br /><br />Care to explain why you think this is true?<br /><br />Are you saying that a University ~doesn't~ have a "message to express"?<br /><br />You really need to explain your thinking here Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-91932669110691727622010-12-14T12:00:50.991-05:002010-12-14T12:00:50.991-05:00"Not any more than, say, the Catholic Church,..."Not any more than, say, the Catholic Church, that, in Martin's world, must hire Muslims to be deacons, priests, and bishops (LOL - Pope Osama)."<br /><br />This is a terrible analogy. Groups that have a message to express are protected under the First Amendment from having to admit dissenters. A public university does not have that protection.Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-47076035952724278172010-12-14T09:41:39.161-05:002010-12-14T09:41:39.161-05:00Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that ...<i>Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that your reasoning leads to the conclusion that Intelligent Design in protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.</i><br /><br />That's what Gaskell is trying to argue. He, like you, Martin, hopes to establish that all manner of rank and total incompetence, if grounded in religious "reason" (talk about an oxymoron), is protected byArthttp://www.aghunt.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-40414182246667585882010-12-14T09:22:11.878-05:002010-12-14T09:22:11.878-05:00Martin Cothran said...
"Art,
Your quote abo...Martin Cothran said...<br />"Art, <br /><br />Your quote about Gaskell believing that the earth if 4.5 billion years old but that he believes that life began 8,000 years ago comes from the e-mail of a member of the search committee.<br /><br />Has Gaskell ever said this publicly or in anything he has published?"<br /><br />The person who wrote that went to school with Gaskell and was Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-51263025334131906982010-12-14T00:57:03.744-05:002010-12-14T00:57:03.744-05:00Art,
Your quote about Gaskell believing that the...Art, <br /><br />Your quote about Gaskell believing that the earth if 4.5 billion years old but that he believes that life began 8,000 years ago comes from the e-mail of a member of the search committee.<br /><br />Has Gaskell ever said this publicly or in anything he has published?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-68421292355272181862010-12-14T00:36:59.195-05:002010-12-14T00:36:59.195-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54872288452806435412010-12-13T22:36:36.524-05:002010-12-13T22:36:36.524-05:00It seems to me that Mr. Gaskell is a serious Chris...It seems to me that Mr. Gaskell is a serious Christian believer. And like all such persons he wants to figure out how best to think through issues of Scripture, theology, and secular disciplines. Because he comes out of an Evangelical Protestant tradition, his options are rather limited. For this reason, I don't think he's thinking through the issues quite right. Nevertheless, he is Francis Beckwithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03765632359220115150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-33720750526678929172010-12-13T22:32:23.288-05:002010-12-13T22:32:23.288-05:00Martin,
As I have said all along -- I don't k...Martin,<br /><br />As I have said all along -- I don't know if it is relevant. I have already laid out a scenario where it would not be relevant at all, and another contradictory scenario where it would. I do not have the resources to say if either applies.<br /><br />However, unless you are making the claimthat religious believ can never be relevant (i.e., that the hospital should hire a One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-72948352967541747362010-12-13T21:35:32.320-05:002010-12-13T21:35:32.320-05:00Art,
Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone...Art,<br /><br />Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that your reasoning leads to the conclusion that Intelligent Design in protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.<br /><br />It is a very strange position to have to live with, and I understand your frustration. It's a hard thing to live down.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-25655619565977252472010-12-13T21:28:31.741-05:002010-12-13T21:28:31.741-05:003 astrobiology talks in the last year. See:
http:...3 astrobiology talks in the last year. See:<br />http://www.as.uky.edu/academics/departments_programs/PhysicsAstronomy/PhysicsAstronomy/MacAdam/Pages/default.aspxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-21879280886998074532010-12-13T21:22:44.863-05:002010-12-13T21:22:44.863-05:00Btw the current person that runs the observatory h...Btw the current person that runs the observatory has brought in several talks on astrobiology to the observatory's seminar series. These are usually Thursday evenings during the school semester.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-57563921237526395452010-12-13T21:21:56.081-05:002010-12-13T21:21:56.081-05:00Martin, try as you might, you cannot convince anyo...Martin, try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that UK is compelled to hire someone who, say, thinks 8000 = 3 billion, based on his/her religious beliefs. Highlands Latin School will hire such a person, since this sort of numeric perfidy is taught at the school. But UK, or for that matter any for-profit establishment that depends on a modicum of mathematical and scientific sanity to stay Arthttp://www.aghunt.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-9467778890349342552010-12-13T21:13:09.218-05:002010-12-13T21:13:09.218-05:00Martin Cothran said...
"Anonymous,
On what b...Martin Cothran said...<br />"Anonymous,<br /><br />On what basis do you say that the job would involve outreach involving biology issues? The director of the search committee said specifically that it did not involve outreach in biology. And even if it did, do you know of any evidence that this was a problem before at the University of Nebraska where Gaskell served in a similar position?&Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-22002696844366928112010-12-13T20:52:22.900-05:002010-12-13T20:52:22.900-05:00Art,
Are you aware of the specific exemption in t...Art,<br /><br />Are you aware of the specific exemption in the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for religious organizations? Is UK a religious organization? And can I assume you do not contest the conclusion of the argument based on your prior assertion? That Intelligent Design should fall under the protections of the Civil Rights Act?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-18541463920398630132010-12-13T20:49:27.548-05:002010-12-13T20:49:27.548-05:00Anonymous,
On what basis do you say that the job ...Anonymous,<br /><br />On what basis do you say that the job would involve outreach involving biology issues? The director of the search committee said specifically that it did not involve outreach in biology. And even if it did, do you know of any evidence that this was a problem before at the University of Nebraska where Gaskell served in a similar position?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-1072237833856407112010-12-13T20:24:31.969-05:002010-12-13T20:24:31.969-05:00One Brow,
What is it about Gaskell's backgrou...One Brow,<br /><br />What is it about Gaskell's background, experience, or beliefs that would prevent him from meeting the qualifications set forth by the University?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54028655380738318302010-12-13T20:01:33.308-05:002010-12-13T20:01:33.308-05:00Martin,
In addition to other examples, I add this...Martin,<br /><br />In addition to other examples, I add this one, which I think may be more directly relevant. There are occasionally doctors that become Jehovah's Witnesses. As such, they can no longer authorize blood transfusions. Shoud a hospital be allowed to consider that the doctor, for religious reasons, will never authorize a blood transfusion regardless of circumstances, when One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-86094161082018034452010-12-13T19:46:02.036-05:002010-12-13T19:46:02.036-05:00The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not a protection a...The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not a protection against not being hired because of incompetence. For example how would the astronomer explain the asteroid/comet impact theory for the KT mass extinction 65 million years ago if he believes dinosaurs were not in existence before 8000 years ago? Or what about the three probable impact structures in Kentucky that occur in rocks with abundant fossils?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-31458812543503172232010-12-13T19:13:42.700-05:002010-12-13T19:13:42.700-05:00Religion is protected under the Civil Rights Act o...<i>Religion is protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (See Civil Rights Act)<br /><br />Intelligent Design is religion (Art's earlier comment)<br /><br />Therefore, Intelligent Design is protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Inference from premises)<br /><br />This, of course, is the position Art's assertions lead to, not mine. But it puts him in a rather difficult position,Arthttp://www.aghunt.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-91808668064766395592010-12-13T18:02:19.678-05:002010-12-13T18:02:19.678-05:00Religion is protected under the Civil Rights Act o...Religion is protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (See Civil Rights Act)<br /><br />Intelligent Design is religion (Art's earlier comment)<br /><br />Therefore, Intelligent Design is protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Inference from premises)<br /><br />This, of course, is the position Art's assertions lead to, not mine. But it puts him in a rather difficult position, Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.com