tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post5529684355999935554..comments2024-03-28T15:39:28.239-04:00Comments on Vital Remnants: In Defense of AtheistsMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-83847554972384510922010-07-10T13:17:57.746-04:002010-07-10T13:17:57.746-04:00Intelligent Design theorists are trying to find it...<em>Intelligent Design theorists are trying to find it. You can see the sort of reception they get for their efforts.</em><br /><br />Where are they looking for this interaction? What research have they done? Who did the research? It is clear that no such research has been attempted by people associated with the Discovery Institute, so where are the people you are referring to?<br /><br /><em>Free Lunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12272965187978654322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-5215819991839280052010-07-10T10:38:24.184-04:002010-07-10T10:38:24.184-04:00> If gods interact with the universe, I would e...> If gods interact with the universe, I would expect evidence of that interaction.<br /><br />Intelligent Design theorists are trying to find it. You can see the sort of reception they get for their efforts.<br /><br />> Science is a very pragmatic field.<br /><br />What's so pragmatic about speculating about the origins of species? Name a practical benefit from the science of biologyLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-34107706771263363322010-07-10T09:49:30.990-04:002010-07-10T09:49:30.990-04:00There can be no scientific evidence for God, and w...<em>There can be no scientific evidence for God, and where is the scientific evidence for God?</em><br /><br />No, all I said was that there is no need of the hypothesis that any gods exist. I do not claim that there can be no scientific evidence for any gods. If gods interact with the universe, I would expect evidence of that interaction.<br /><br /><em>If there is no scientific evidence for Free Lunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12272965187978654322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-20476631977349950402010-07-10T01:41:04.169-04:002010-07-10T01:41:04.169-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-58005296939725620602010-07-10T01:26:12.860-04:002010-07-10T01:26:12.860-04:00> As a social animal I enjoy (as the product of...> As a social animal I enjoy (as the product of evolution) the good-for-the-community-is-good-for-me trait.<br /><br />That strikes me as a fickle standard. So long as the community is good for you, then you adhere to its rules. But when the community is no longer good for you, what then?<br /><br />And they say what *I* believe is scary.<br /><br />Communities can change. One minute they&#Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-46375004181702885232010-07-10T00:49:30.577-04:002010-07-10T00:49:30.577-04:00> they actually demand of their followers all m...> they actually demand of their followers all manner of atrocity. <br /><br />If you are referring to 1 Samuel 15, I think there are a number of different interpretations. Mine is pretty simple: God, the Creator of life, has the authority to decide when life ends. If He doesn't, who does? He does so every day, though He has not often (since the days of the Hebrew kings) sent prophets Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-67956010937915638212010-07-10T00:31:08.848-04:002010-07-10T00:31:08.848-04:00> ... but they both make it clear that without ...> ... but they both make it clear that without a belief in god these two people (Lee and Evan) would not be able to control the evil deeds they did. If there isn't a god (hint: there isn't!) then they don't see what would stop them from raping, murdering and stealing.<br /><br />There goes that moral preening thing again.<br /><br />It's not hard for me to imagine how much moreLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-56627684662972766832010-07-10T00:10:03.416-04:002010-07-10T00:10:03.416-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-30855645342671051882010-07-09T23:57:07.071-04:002010-07-09T23:57:07.071-04:00> There is no evidence for design or a designer...> There is no evidence for design or a designer of nature, so we must tentatively conclude that there was no design of the universe.<br /><br />And then, of course, an atheist can turn around and say, "But you can't have scientific evidence for the supernatural because science only explains the natural."<br /><br />So the way atheists frame the issue, it's heads you win, Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-24699285752971746132010-07-09T15:55:14.855-04:002010-07-09T15:55:14.855-04:00As a social animal I enjoy (as the product of evol...As a social animal I enjoy (as the product of evolution) the good-for-the-community-is-good-for-me trait.<br /><br />We evolved a highly complex social structure that includes wanting to help our fellow species-mates, this helps (or certainly helped) us survive as a species.<br /><br />The nice feeling we get when we help others is an evolutionary result - not a godly one.<br /><br />It makes me Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-88661017533775667372010-07-09T15:09:54.823-04:002010-07-09T15:09:54.823-04:00Lee's comment isn't quite as bad as Evan&#...<i>Lee's comment isn't quite as bad as Evan's... but they both make it clear that without a belief in god these two people (Lee and Evan) would not be able to control the evil deeds they did. If there isn't a god (hint: there isn't!) then they don't see what would stop them from raping, murdering and stealing.</i><br /><br />Of course, matters are much worse. Lee's godArthttp://www.aghunt.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-51314449055735899972010-07-09T15:00:36.517-04:002010-07-09T15:00:36.517-04:00I will address some of the points made by Free Lun...I will address some of the points made by Free Lunch and Joe later on, but did you catch this?<br /><br />> I don't need the threat of hell to make me behave and obey laws - too bad Lee and Evan can't say the same thing...<br /><br />My goodness! Is that... moral preening!?<br /><br />I thought only religious folks did that sort of thing.<br /><br />I wasn't aware moral preening Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-50894600078248412432010-07-09T13:42:21.941-04:002010-07-09T13:42:21.941-04:00Evan Oliver: "If humans are nothing more than...Evan Oliver: "If humans are nothing more than highly evolved animals without any kind of god, then on what basis do we legislate against rape, murder, or anything else?"<br /><br />Lee: "I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong because God made it so."<br /><br />Lee's comment isn't quite as bad as Evan's... but they both make it clear that without a Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-37131473766881854182010-07-09T08:26:31.140-04:002010-07-09T08:26:31.140-04:00Lee,
There is no evidence for design or a designe...Lee,<br /><br />There is no evidence for design or a designer of nature, so we must tentatively conclude that there was no design of the universe. If evidence is ever found, the conclusion will be changed. Until then, there is no need for the hypothesis that there is a designer.<br /><br />...<br /><br />Asserting that there is an absolute standard of morality does not give us one. If you claim Free Lunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12272965187978654322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-67519609932014571762010-07-09T07:47:23.897-04:002010-07-09T07:47:23.897-04:00> What absolute set of moral standards is that?...> What absolute set of moral standards is that? The one that caused Southern Christians to split from their Northern counterparts and start a war against them to save slavery or the one that said that slavery was a evil that should never have been allowed to exist?<br /><br />Does the failure to live up to an absolute standard mean that the standard does not exist? Or that we even clearly Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-73437984682330535752010-07-09T07:30:25.698-04:002010-07-09T07:30:25.698-04:00> Why only those possibilities?
Think of these...> Why only those possibilities?<br /><br />Think of these as categories: random happenstance, necessity, design.<br /><br />If it wasn't designed, then it is left to the elements: necessity or randomness.<br /><br />If it isn't necessary, it is random.<br /><br />If there is another category, you haven't suggested what it is.<br /><br />Let's make it even simpler: either an Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-10584144606652881322010-07-08T19:03:58.256-04:002010-07-08T19:03:58.256-04:00Of course there is an absolute set of moral standa...<em>Of course there is an absolute set of moral standards, because it reflects God's eternal character.</em><br /><br />What absolute set of moral standards is that? The one that caused Southern Christians to split from their Northern counterparts and start a war against them to save slavery or the one that said that slavery was a evil that should never have been allowed to exist? Was St. Free Lunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12272965187978654322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-54694732459135431242010-07-08T18:56:55.831-04:002010-07-08T18:56:55.831-04:00I can think of three reasons why something happens...<em>I can think of three reasons why something happens: by random happenstance, or accident; by necessity; or by design. The process of evolution as you describe it fits into the random happenstance category.</em><br /><br />Why only those possibilities?<br /><br /><em>An intelligence does not perform the selecting;</em><br /><br />Although the idea of <em>natural selection</em> was invented to Free Lunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12272965187978654322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-10003831321019308882010-07-08T17:38:45.280-04:002010-07-08T17:38:45.280-04:00> This is what is SO SCARY about religious fund...> This is what is SO SCARY about religious fundamentalism... your statement, when taken to it's logical conclution, is that without a god in the sky you (Lee) would rape, steal and murder. That really makes you an amoral A-hole.<br /><br />Charming. What was it that Martin was saying about Darwinists with no manners?<br /><br />How can someone be an amoral A-hole if there is no objective Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-32202688243225043762010-07-08T17:06:10.872-04:002010-07-08T17:06:10.872-04:00> It's not that simple. It's not one or...> It's not that simple. It's not one or the other. The mutations are random and the selection for positive reproductive traits is not random but selective. That doesn't automatically make it "designed", in fact it isn't "designed" at all.<br /><br />I can think of three reasons why something happens: by random happenstance, or accident; by necessity; or by Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-73263651662291078782010-07-08T09:09:57.092-04:002010-07-08T09:09:57.092-04:00Lee wrote: "if it is not designed, then what ...Lee wrote: "if it is not designed, then what is the alternative to random?"<br /><br />It's not that simple. It's not one or the other. The mutations are random and the selection for positive reproductive traits is not random but selective. That doesn't automatically make it "designed", in fact it isn't "designed" at all.<br /><br />Lee cont'd: &Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-1185407388306173102010-07-07T23:16:38.702-04:002010-07-07T23:16:38.702-04:00I have to admit I find it funny that Martin is bei...I have to admit I find it funny that Martin is being asked to provide a logical reply to name calling. <br /> Can we disect 'truth', have we ever placed logic in a test tube? If humans are nothing more than highly evolved animals without any kind of god, then on what basis do we legislate against rape, murder, or anything else? If the world is here by accident, then what place does truthEvan Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17403088816411469379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-33215066963300467922010-07-07T22:25:07.370-04:002010-07-07T22:25:07.370-04:00> Self-organized and random are mutually exclus...> Self-organized and random are mutually exclusive. <br /><br />Self-organized in that, well, the body gives all the appearances of being organized. Or do you dispute that?<br /><br />Random, in that it happened all by itself. No guiding intelligence.<br /><br />> Your statement seems to be founded on the fallacious assumption that evolution is a random process. <br /><br />Presuming Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974887002402743628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-72995721353765813172010-07-07T13:51:25.486-04:002010-07-07T13:51:25.486-04:00"If you believe man is just a collection of s..."If you believe man is just a collection of self-organized molecules put together at random by the universe,"<br /><br />Self-organized and random are mutually exclusive. Your statement seems to be founded on the fallacious assumption that evolution is a random process. But setting that aside, why do truth, validity etc. need to be objective? This is something that religious Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-52470175891720666412010-07-07T09:42:33.357-04:002010-07-07T09:42:33.357-04:00I agree with Singring... the comments have been ex...I agree with Singring... the comments have been exceedingly polite and civil.<br /><br />Why is questioning another man's ideas considered an 'epithet' or 'uncivil'??Joe_Agnosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527451040606921115noreply@blogger.com