tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post5123958694748368406..comments2024-03-28T15:39:28.239-04:00Comments on Vital Remnants: The Failure of Enlightenment Morality, Part CLVIIMartin Cothranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-628942205767862742010-09-19T17:35:10.217-04:002010-09-19T17:35:10.217-04:00Whether enough people believe in a set of moral pr...Whether enough people believe in a set of moral principles for these principles to be reflected in law and custom is, of course, a sociological question, and certainly (as has been established) not a question that touches on the truth of any particular moral principle. The more important question that is raised in this post is: what moral principles <i>ought</i> law and social custom be based on.Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-59493644702710408842010-09-19T15:26:19.293-04:002010-09-19T15:26:19.293-04:00Wow, you guys had quite the debate while I was awa...Wow, you guys had quite the debate while I was away!<br /><br />Just thought I'd bring to your attention the fact that the <a href="http://vulgarmorality.wordpress.com/2010/09/19/god-rationalism-and-morality-a-controversy/" rel="nofollow">Vulgar Moralist</a> has entered the fray.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16132674237614327721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-3726941903509855142010-09-17T17:58:06.348-04:002010-09-17T17:58:06.348-04:00Thomas,
Lets get back to the claim of the origina...Thomas,<br /><br />Lets get back to the claim of the original post, which is that Enlightenment morality is a failure because its not grounded in God's laws. I'm not arguing that God doesn't have one true set of moral laws, I'm arguing that since no-one can agree on what they are, you can't base society's morality on them, so the Enlightenment didn't change KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-8563546536821906602010-09-17T11:24:12.941-04:002010-09-17T11:24:12.941-04:00KyCobb,
The first step would be to think about it...KyCobb,<br /><br />The first step would be to think about it for yourself, and don't let other people do your thinking for you. <br /><br />You keep bringing up the fact that people disagree as though that indicates in some way that no moral standard exists. But there's no logical connection between the two unless you're making the argument I fleshed out on your behalf. Since you'Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-36371605283973885972010-09-17T07:33:06.047-04:002010-09-17T07:33:06.047-04:00Martin,
As language teacher, I would expect you t...Martin,<br /><br />As language teacher, I would expect you to know the difference between no-one and everyone. I'm not saying there isn't unanimity on God's moral laws, I'm saying that its difficult to find even two people who agree on what God's laws are. In a nation of three hundred million people, there are probably a couple of hundred million versions of God's KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-47776715838439648322010-09-17T00:09:42.500-04:002010-09-17T00:09:42.500-04:00"How can a standard be said to exist when no-..."How can a standard be said to exist when no-one can agree on what it is?"Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-52882485056491596822010-09-17T00:00:08.214-04:002010-09-17T00:00:08.214-04:00Martin,
Good job of knocking down strawmen. If I...Martin,<br /><br />Good job of knocking down strawmen. If I had meant that there had to be unanimous agreement, I would have said something like, "How can a standard be said to exist when there isn't a consensus as to what it is?" Unanimity is a ridiculous standard-there are still people who think the earth is flat.<br /><br />Thomas claimed that a person who is intellectually KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-2600605069228321352010-09-16T22:35:48.173-04:002010-09-16T22:35:48.173-04:00KyCobb,
Woah. Roll back the tape. That's exa...KyCobb,<br /><br />Woah. Roll back the tape. That's <i>exactly</i> what you said. You said: "How can a standard be said to exist when no-one can agree on what it is?" And now you're saying, "I'm not saying that there is no true standard of morality because there is no unanimity as to what it is."<br /><br />We're scratching our heads here.<br /><br />And nowMartin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-4850833440253151962010-09-16T21:36:51.749-04:002010-09-16T21:36:51.749-04:00Thomas,
You are misrepresenting my argument. I&#...Thomas,<br /><br />You are misrepresenting my argument. I'm not saying that there is no true standard of morality because there is no unanimity as to what it is-I'm saying that no-one agrees with anyone else as to what the true standard of morality is. Its not like solving a math equation or historical research because there is no objective standard by which one can determine whether KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-77163482671944468892010-09-16T17:23:57.837-04:002010-09-16T17:23:57.837-04:00Adam,
I have a feeling this one may last a while,...Adam,<br /><br />I have a feeling this one may last a while, and I'm planning on another post in a few days on a similar topic, so I think we'll be here a while. Have fun.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-1056836686084399402010-09-16T17:00:28.716-04:002010-09-16T17:00:28.716-04:00it may be silly to inform you of this, but I will ...it may be silly to inform you of this, but I will be away for four days, and so will be unable to contribute any more to this discussion. I really do want to follow up, though; too many intelligent sparring partners to pass up.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16132674237614327721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-21815962139669458302010-09-16T16:27:17.073-04:002010-09-16T16:27:17.073-04:00I suppose that if KyCobb comes back and disgrees w...I suppose that if KyCobb comes back and disgrees with you, it will mean that there is no right answer to the question you all are debating, which makes you wonder why he would be debating it.Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-33221242913161591222010-09-16T16:26:53.741-04:002010-09-16T16:26:53.741-04:00KyCobb,
You're just assuming what you're ...KyCobb,<br /><br />You're just assuming what you're trying to prove. To the extent that what you're saying is an argument at all, it runs something like this.<br /><br />1. Any true principle will be recognized by everyone<br />2. The principles of moral philosophy are not recognized by everyone.<br />3. Therefore, the principles of moral philosophy are not true principles.<br /><br /Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-3847355580302330942010-09-16T15:15:37.666-04:002010-09-16T15:15:37.666-04:00I should specify the last post is directed at KyCo...I should specify the last post is directed at KyCobb.Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-64019727294435320902010-09-16T15:14:39.836-04:002010-09-16T15:14:39.836-04:00So if people disagree on something, it can't b...So if people disagree on something, it can't be true? Why don't you think about what that would entail. If people disagree about mathematics (regardless of their own capacity to do mathematics) there must be no mathematical laws. If people disagree about the order of the Pharoahs in Ancient Egypt, there must be no right answer to the question, and so on. That's the most absurd and Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-76142504123742958862010-09-16T14:26:06.066-04:002010-09-16T14:26:06.066-04:00Martin,
How can a standard be said to exist when ...Martin,<br /><br />How can a standard be said to exist when no-one can agree on what it is? Morality laws are on the books-you can look them up-they exist whether you think they should be enforced or not. But Jews think the Torah contains God's immutable laws, Muslims the Koran, LDS the Book of Mormon. Protestants and Catholics have differing versions of the Bible, each translation which KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-52214938852859537472010-09-16T12:41:52.347-04:002010-09-16T12:41:52.347-04:00KyCobb,
I fail to see how the fact that someone (...KyCobb,<br /><br />I fail to see how the fact that someone (e.g. a theocratic state) fails to approximate a standard or fails to retain it in the same form over time is an argument against the existence of a standard. Is the fact that people violate laws against morality evidence that laws against morality do not exist?Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-77267221387368021082010-09-16T11:50:39.543-04:002010-09-16T11:50:39.543-04:00I think you're correct that we mean different ...I think you're correct that we mean different things by "reasoned argument." There are several assumptions you seem to be making about rational arguments that I think are unfounded (though, they do belong to some illustrious schools of philosophy, so probably I shouldn't be too critical):<br /><br />1) That a reasoned argument is "value-neutral". This has been the Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-73637504483362823602010-09-16T09:59:12.192-04:002010-09-16T09:59:12.192-04:00Martin,
"It's all a crap shoot."
T...Martin,<br /><br />"It's all a crap shoot."<br /><br />That's true anyway, and it always has been. There is no definitive word of God on morality that nearly everyone accepts and there never has been. Even if you could establish a theocratic state in which you imposed your interpretation of God's immutable moral laws on everyone else, the interpretation of God's KyCobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-83667568491155882522010-09-15T17:03:32.817-04:002010-09-15T17:03:32.817-04:00Martin,
I began to write a response to your comme...Martin,<br /><br />I began to write a response to your comment, but decided it was a whole other can of worms that I couldn't produce a quick answer to. So..noted! And to be continued another time! :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16132674237614327721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-15057423433652293842010-09-15T16:47:56.480-04:002010-09-15T16:47:56.480-04:00I would like to interject one important point as y...I would like to interject one important point as you two go at it here in regard to persuasion. The standard classical model of persuasion, as laid down by Aristotle in his Rhetoric, is that it has three modes: Ethos, logos, and pathos. <br /><br />In other words, people are persuaded in three ways: by the character and trustworthiness of the speaker (ethos), the rational strength of the Martin Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452612266051351726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-82333797466564252032010-09-15T16:24:35.040-04:002010-09-15T16:24:35.040-04:00I think the crux of our disagreement is that I do ...I think the crux of our disagreement is that I do not even understand what you mean by a "rational argument".<br /><br />Let's take one of your examples:<br /><br />"<i>People have become vegetarians when they were persuaded by arguments against factory farms, despite having no particular love for animals.</i>"<br /><br />Here are your claims in this example, as I Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16132674237614327721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-39406416996311529542010-09-15T16:16:46.096-04:002010-09-15T16:16:46.096-04:00"You examples of people being persuaded simpl..."You examples of people being persuaded simply point to cases where people have changed position because they have been persuaded that the new position matches their (nonlogical, nonrational) values better than their old one. Or possibly got them to change some values by appealing to others that they felt more strongly about."<br /><br />No, they are not. Read them again. They are aboutThomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-42668050747602862962010-09-15T14:00:58.060-04:002010-09-15T14:00:58.060-04:00Thomas,
You examples of people being persuaded si...Thomas,<br /><br />You examples of people being persuaded simply point to cases where people have changed position because they have been persuaded that the new position matches their (nonlogical, nonrational) values better than their old one. Or possibly got them to change some values by appealing to others that they felt more strongly about.<br /><br />Regardless, they did not appeal to some Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16132674237614327721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11542449.post-46222143187421931782010-09-15T13:44:11.216-04:002010-09-15T13:44:11.216-04:00"[Y]ou cannot use reason to arrive at belief,..."[Y]ou cannot use reason to arrive at belief, plain and simple. You can use it to help you think through things, but ultimately you will have to end that thought process with a judgment call, which is nonrational."<br /><br />This is absurd. People do this all the time. People have become vegetarians when they were persuaded by arguments against factory farms, despite having no Thomas M. Cothranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07824873424225826685noreply@blogger.com